Zezo forum: VR ending the ELO ranking.

VR ending the ELO ranking.

Post by zezo | 2021-01-14 | 11:46:43

So it's the news today. VR will be getting rid of the ELO points and back to the classic 1 position = 1 point system. No more negative points for bad performance.

33 Comments

Post by freudenoli | 2021-01-14 | 13:08:33

let's see if they keep the VSR levels or if every race counts the same, no matter if short or long....also, if you come in on place 100.000 in the vendee you get 900.000 points...which equals a win in like 10 normal races with 100k participants...interesting to say the least...and again no bonuses for winning or top 3 as points will be linear if I understood the news correctly...maybe next year we circle back to the logarithmic point system where good race finishes were properly rewarded...

Post by Rostef | 2021-01-14 | 13:44:55

No one will get 1'000'000 points on the vend�e. I don't think that every registered player will be able to cross the finish line in time :-).

But of course, if there is a vend�e, and you decide not to race it, then you can forget about that ranking.

But the linearity of that system will still just favor those who play a lot. A bit like for every game ranking where the main goal is to make people play more and spend more money?

Post by BooBill | 2021-01-14 | 13:48:28

This is pretty much the ranking system that I advocated a couple of months ago. Makes a poor finish or "retirement" less punitive. Not starting and not finishing pretty much the same effect, so the incentive is there to race more often and take some risks if you want to maintain your position.

However, and never been one to engage in conspiracy theories, but the timing has to be a little suspect. A number of top VSR players are on their way to disastrous finishes in the VG. I'm heading for a negative points finish myself, so it isn't sour grapes.

Post by YourMomSA | 2021-01-14 | 15:08:14

This ranking system is actually very similar to the version from several years ago. At some point, they'll decide it's too much of an accumulation of points rather than performance-based, and they'll add a logarithmic scale. Then they'll go back to ELO again.

Annoying that they made this change AFTER I shanked that Cat 6 race and dropped like a rock. But kinda moot... with the new system, I won't be able to stay high in the ranks, since I don't do every race.

The biggest downside to this system (and the prior one) is that there's no tangible difference between 1st and 50th. It really should have some kind of logarithmic benefit per-position when you're near the front, so that winning is worth a lot more than second, and second is a lot more than 10th, and 10th is a lot more than 100th, etc.

Post by BooBill | 2021-01-14 | 15:40:36

Agree strongly with that. Thinking about it more, my earlier proposal was for more of a golf ranking, where the winner takes a bigger share of the purse. Something like,

Points = entries * (result / entries)

would be preferable.

Post by jokap | 2021-01-14 | 15:52:45

If they'd only spend their time on fixing bugs instead of fixing something that's not broken, they wouldn't end up pissing off a decent part of the players--as I'm sure, some will be pissed off by this change. At least annoyed.
It almost seems like they really have no clue at all about how to fix their bugs...so they try to find other stuff to do ;D
And yeah, I guess they're reckoning they can make more cash this way. Oh well. Pissing off enough people, they might end up with the exact opposite...

Post by zezo | 2021-01-14 | 20:27:43

Next step should be to reduce the prices in half, get 3x paying users and get everything where it was 5 years ago.

Post by SPRexxii | 2021-01-14 | 22:24:02

The following was my post on my TeamUSA Discord. I'll leave a copy here as well.

Someone at VR with 5th grade Math skills just ripped my heart out. I would have broken 4800 in only 40 races when the Vendee and JV conclude. Two things have kept me coming back, my love of navigation and building my VSR Rating. This truly is a deal breaker for me. I am crushed that something we have all put our hearts and minds and $$$ into is being tossed in the Bin. How many 3AM alarms have we all set to check our boat and protect our VSR. My 4747 rating is something I have taken pride in building and had a goal of 4900+ in 50 races. I can't imagine what is going through the minds of all you brilliant sailors and the likes of Geo, LUKA, Nicky, Ginn, Smit, Truffle, MCC, Boss, Ouwe, Awkward and the Ghost who have attained stratospheric 4800+ ratings. I am very sad as I have suspected this was coming for a little while now. Congratulations to Nicki761 being our top ranked teammate 65th in the VR Universe! I will still be around for the sailing, but see absolutely no reason to ever spend another Dime. At 30Euro for the Jules Verne alone it will be my final swan song of the Pay to play. Those same stratospheric ratings have price tags to match, the value of which is the rating. A little part of me died today.

Post by BooBill | 2021-01-14 | 23:35:40

I don't think you need to be so discouraged SPRexxii. Your current ranking will carry over as a base for the new ranking. Doing well in big races will still move you up. You may have to do every race if you want to hold a spot in the top 50, but the guys currently holding those spots do pretty much every race with a fully loaded boat anyway.

The good thing is, a bad race, an intervening personal life, aren't going to knock you back into the cheap seats. You just won't move ahead.

I just think it's fishy that they are making the change 2 days before the finish of a race that would have knocked a few folks currently in the top 5 back so far they wouldn't have seen the top of the board for a year.

Post by SPRexxii | 2021-01-15 | 01:25:02

HI Boo,

Thank you for your consoling. I appreciate it. Still Sad but I'll get over it. Never got to 4800.......................................................

Cheers,
Rex

Post by YC6211 | 2021-01-18 | 23:53:02

I feel your pain. Me and another bloke in my team have a bet on who gets to 4900 first. As of the end of VG, We've both done 25 races and I lead him 4853 to 4843. Shame we wont get to finish it.

Post by SPRexxii | 2021-01-19 | 00:21:58

Crusher. You win. haha.

Post by BooBill | 2021-01-17 | 14:47:45

Just a thought, but the credits award calculation is logarithmic, why not just do ranking based upon credits earned in last year? Just like in golf.

Although, and this has pissed off many, the credits a log declining based on your ranking, without regard to how many entries there are in a race. So, it's like there is a fixed prize pool and in the case of the VG, 20 times the normal entries to share in it.

1600 * (7 - Race Category) / (Rank ^ 0,25) = Credits

Post by M63 | 2021-01-17 | 19:57:35

It's as bad as before; my VSR rating is exactly the same as my XP rating.
The previous system implemented a premium for first arrivals because the system was strongly degressive.
As described, the system would henceforth be proportional and directly linked to classification without any markdown or markup.
Such a system outrageously favors those who participate in all races. It's not my case. I can't, I work ...

M

Post by zezo | 2021-01-17 | 20:36:27

No way to stay at the top of the ranking without spending a lot time and money, no matter what the system is.

But XP is easier. I'm currently #5 because I participate in all races (to make sure the router works).

Max VSR was about 20, but keeping it would require paying for each and every race I entered. AND not making huge mistakes. Got punished 78 points once.

Post by BGSteMarine | 2021-01-18 | 16:50:40

Hi. The new VSR is in place, and it seems that the conversion algo is a simple arithmetic function :
NewVsrPoints = ( OldVsrPoints - 541,9955 ) * 185,3

Post by YourMomSA | 2021-01-18 | 19:44:19

So I guess Category is no longer a thing, right? I wonder how they'll manage pricing (both for full pack and credit costs for individual options).

Post by BGSteMarine | 2021-01-18 | 22:23:20

They will probably keep the category for the pricing and for the Credits calculation, but clearly not anymore for the VSR Points

Post by YourMomSA | 2021-01-18 | 23:45:41

The main page doesn't seem to show a Category designation at all anymore. Although you may well be correct that it'll still be present behind the scenes, to drive the pricing.

Post by Jeanbern19 | 2021-01-20 | 05:24:26

Hi Chris, Yes exact
but in the list of upcoming races. the levels are there

Post by MidnightFoiler | 2021-01-19 | 09:00:56

What a ridiculous conversion for the top of the fleet. Even if I competed in every race I do not imagine making up 24000 points on the top 10 in any number of years!

Even the top 10 will only change if someone misses a race or has a pretty bad race.

Post by PML | 2021-01-19 | 10:15:33

As previously earned points will no longer be taken into account for the ranking after 24 months, it won't take you more than 2 years to get to the top of the ranking if you consistently beat the leaders in every race during that period.

Post by gavitellogolos0 | 2021-01-19 | 09:06:40

Post by gavitellogolos0 | 2021-01-19 | 09:08:11

My first score is 756.581, i.e. around 75.000 points from the leader, Luxairfrance. This rating seems to me irrelastic considering that I've joined VR only late March 2020 and that I did not participate to all races. If the new rating is just a simple algorithm as presented by BGSteMArine then the new rating is as minimum ridicolous....

Post by zezo | 2021-01-19 | 10:44:00

The new system requires participation in each and every race.

Which has good and bad points. Good thing is it's much more demanding for top level players. Miss one race and you drop from #1 to #10000

Bad news is it's the same for everyone else, forcing you to play and pay.

Post by MidnightFoiler | 2021-01-19 | 11:28:10

Yes, I forgot about the 24 month window but that doesn't really help anyone with a low ranking now, or didn't sail VG - no hope of getting any where for 2 years - requires a long term view.

I reckon a simple way that would work quite well and allow people to give getting to the top a shot would be something like an exponential decay of old points. Each race your points are halved and new race added - if you race or not. Would still encourage participation in every race and so keep VR happy but not require years to get to the top if you put some effort in over a shorter period. I guess halving is a bit extreme but you get the idea.

I suppose some people might like the longer term game but to me its boring. VRO is slow enough a game as it is!

Post by YourMomSA | 2021-01-19 | 13:50:22

I have zero interest in VSR in this mode. I've done certain courses (particularly transatlantics) enough times to find them quite dull, so I'm not interested in doing every event. And I'm definitely not interested in paying for every event. So my ranking will tumble behind people who do every event, even if they finish 1,000th or worse on a regular basis. And that's ok. It actually frees me from any incentive to sign up for events for VSR purposes that I might otherwise not do... because there's no point in doing that unless you're doing to do it every time.

They'll change it again in a year or two.

Post by PML | 2021-01-19 | 18:50:00

The new system will probably see the return of some top VSR players in record races - giving more weight to these somehow unpredictable events.

Competing for top VSR ranking with the new system will be very demanding for sure and does not seem compatible with an occupation outside the game.

What if VR were to offer a percentage of its revenue (EUR 3 million in 2020 according an article published this weekend in Le Monde, an amount which is probably set to increase in the future with the success of the Vend�e Globe) to the top VSR player(s) at the end of each year, as an incentive ? We have seen professional teams (e.g. MCES) recruiting VR players recently, maybe the game will professionalize as other e-sports in the coming years.

Post by SPRexxii | 2021-01-20 | 04:01:04

YourMomSA,

My sentiments exactly. I'll see you for the good ones! My humble about 1200th in the rankings pales in comparison but we have both beat each other a few times this year. Go Team Sorry No Team!

Cheers,
Rex II
TeamUSA

Post by Mcfly BSP | 2021-01-20 | 15:45:58

Hi !

Hello, here on the VR forum an alternate ranking essay.

https://forum.virtualregatta.com/topic/15791-classement-vr-officieux/?tab=comments#comment-312020

Post by Pierre | 2021-02-10 | 14:01:04

Looking at this discussion, I tried to guess how many points I will get for Vendee Globe... I finished around 8900th. I looked at the map of Vendee Globe, and I saw several boats crashed in the antartic or lost behind the ice limit. They are still ranked around 500 000. So at the end probably half of the million players will drop and will never get back... and will not be ranked.

If I'm right I should get around 490000 points. The first one will get 500000 "only". I do not find this very fair. The first ones should get much more.

Post by YourMomSA | 2021-02-10 | 16:54:36

The primary driver in the new rankings will be to enter and finish every race. Anyone who does that will be ranked thousands of positions ahead of someone who enters 70% of races even if the latter boat wins every race entered.

Post by SPRexxii | 2021-03-12 | 21:51:26

YM very correct.

So a month later and my ranking has dropped from 1200 to 8718 While I continue to sail the JV and have passed on the pig boat races. The VG closes on Monday, should be interesting to see the results on the New(BS) rating system. After JV we will see what a 6 month hiatus does to my rank as I have a German Hotrod to build and the IRL sailing season approaching.