Zezo forum: Manoeuvering penalties update

Manoeuvering penalties update

Post by Paspox | 2021-08-30 | 13:06:46

FYI : https://virtualregatta.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/115001441474-Does-my-boat-slow-down-when-I-manoeuver-

43 Comments

Post by YourMomSA | 2021-08-30 | 15:11:16

Wow. Excellent detail from VR, but that puts a pretty big penalty on sailchanges. I'm wondering if Cvetan will be able to adjust the router to account for this. Short-tacking is a much harder decision now. I'm guessing Cvetan won't be able to put a precise calculation into Zezo, but anything that gets closer to the VR calculation will help.

Also... It has been mentioned in the past and the answer has been no because it wasn't worth the added complexity, but... it might be more beneficial now to be able to tell Zezo what your current sail and tack are... so that it can factor in the penalty if you choose to do an immediate sailchange or tack/gybe.

Post by timr | 2021-09-02 | 10:19:56

Lack of detail from VR is a big problem. Until they accurately describe the wind strength bands low, medium, high that different penalties apply to, we have zero chance of accurately calculating whether to tack or not.

Post by Paspox | 2021-08-30 | 15:41:31

Right now Zezo takes into account the time penalty (the old one) for the tacks and gybes but not for the sail changes, is that correct ?

Post by toxcct | 2021-08-30 | 16:05:29

it does, but it doesn't know which tack you are on when you request a new route, so it implies the simplest, most direct path, which could actually force you to tack/gybe.

That was not not a big issue until then, but now that the penalties are becoming quite expensive, maybe a way to tell the router if we are sailing port or starboard could make it change its mind...

Post by Hardtack | 2021-08-31 | 00:10:56

I added a few columns to VR Dashboard for displaying expected penalty times and lost distance. Here is a zip file for manual installation. I'll publish the new version to the Google store soon.

I also performed some manoeuvres with a no-options boat in Figaro2 but the numbers I got don't really make sense to me. One reason for that is, the server messages contain the remaining penalty time, but not the start time. Still, it looks like the server still uses the 5min penalty time. I didn't test with pro winches.

Post by Ptit Pimousse | 2021-09-01 | 07:14:23

I have downloaded the file, but not sure how to install the new dashboard version. Could you help? Thanks

Post by Hardtack | 2021-09-02 | 10:53:15

Version 3.17 was published in the meantime, you just need to restart your browser.

To manually install an extension,
- Unpack the zip file to a directory of your choice
- Open the URL chrome://extensions/ in Chrome
- Enable Developer Mode
- Click 'Load unpacked extension' and point to the extension directory.

Post by Ptit Pimousse | 2021-09-06 | 07:14:42

Thanks :)

Post by Caledonia | 2021-08-31 | 09:41:51

Can I assume that when a tack or gybe is made which also involves a sail change the penalties for each are added together.

Post by Hardtack | 2021-08-31 | 12:26:12

This is how it worked in the past, but with VR, you can't assume anything.

Post by YourMomSA | 2021-08-31 | 14:05:21

The percentage changes were compounded in the same timeframe... The times weren't added. So there was a small advantage in doing a sailchange at the same time as a tack or gybe, versus doing both sequentially. But to your point, we don't know what it's doing in that case now.

Post by Hardtack | 2021-08-31 | 15:35:21

Yes, thanks for clarifying.
I did not test combined manoeuvres yet - maybe tonight.

Post by YourMomSA | 2021-08-31 | 12:39:33

In another thread, a method was identified for turning AutoSails off... From the menu in the top right corner, you can go into Settings. In there, you can turn AutoSails off. I'm wondering if experiments in the updated dashboard will answer this... Does turning Autosails off (or on, for that matter) trigger a penalty? It didn't in the past, but I've done it several times in these Figaro races, and I've felt like I've been losing places when I do that...

I was also making some poor tactical decisions, so it might just be natural. I haven't raced well in these events. But the situation makes me curious.

Post by Hardtack | 2021-08-31 | 15:30:04

I sharpened my weapons and ran some more tests (using "Pro" winches)

Good news first: There is no penalty when turning AutoSail off.

Everything else is less pleasant:
- A sail change penalty is applied when turning AutoSail on (without actual sail change)

- When gybing, the penalty time matches the time determined by Dashboard for the current wind speed. However, the loss off distance is bigger than expected, indicating that VR is ignoring the winch option.

- When tacking, the gybe penalty time is applied instead of the tack time. The loss of distance matches the distance expected for a gybe, so it seems the winch option is taken into account when tacking.

- The sail change penalty time (and therefore the loss of distance) is higher than predicted. I tested in around 16.5kn of wind which is closer to the low wind threshold (10kn). Interpolating from the wrong end of the interval (high wind threshold=30kn) almost reproduces the result but not quite. The winch option seems to be applied correctly.

Clearly room for improvement there...

PS. If you want to make tests yourself, issue commands on minute :04 or :09. This way they will be executed at minute :05 or :10 and Dashboard should display the full penalty time on the next position update.

Post by YourMomSA | 2021-08-31 | 16:49:47

Thanks! The fact that I was turning Autosails off and on explains some of my confusing losses.

Post by Hardtack | 2021-08-31 | 15:33:07

Here's a dashboard screenshot in case anybody wants to look at the numbers.

Post by Inicio | 2021-08-31 | 20:53:25

Thank you Hardtack. Very interesting.
And VR path on screen not calculate neither, nor Sail change nor tack.

Post by joyoung | 2021-08-31 | 21:59:23

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Post by Ptit Pimousse | 2021-09-01 | 07:12:31

interesting thread thanks. With regards to the Sails Auto button. Basically If I switch off and switch back on again (say 4 times a day) it will cost me 4 penalties. And the penalties are linked to the wind speed and the sail I am currently using?

The minimum really is to have them on for the full 24H and only do one change per 24H or not having them on altogether and force the change of sails manually. Is that correct?

Post by Hardtack | 2021-09-01 | 07:28:39

Ftr,
I did a few more tests yesterday evening and this time, the tacking and sail change penalties looked correct. There was also no penalty for switching on AutoSail anymore.

I'm just glad I took the screenshot to prove the incorrect penalties really had happened.

So either they fixed it, or penalties work correctly on some servers but not on others.

Post by Ptit Pimousse | 2021-09-01 | 07:30:30

great news about the auto sails :)

Post by Inicio | 2021-09-01 | 10:56:16

Thanks!
Also the Pro Winches are now working?

Post by Hardtack | 2021-09-01 | 11:06:19

I'm not completely sure!
The first set of tests clearly showed they are not working as can be seen in my screenshot from 2021-08-31 15:33:07. But when testing again later that day the tacking penalties were correct. I didn't re-test the gybes.

Post by Paspox | 2021-09-02 | 07:20:12

Quick question : what formula did you use to calculate the time penalties for wind range 10 to 30kts ?
Thanks

Post by Hardtack | 2021-09-02 | 08:11:44

I'm doing simple linear interpolation. The diagram in the help article looks like they#re using splines, but a) I was too lazy to look up splines and b) I doubt that :-)

Post by Inicio | 2021-09-02 | 09:46:32

Hardtack,

I've written to VR asking for the return of the credits for the winches (or the corresponding part in the Full Packs), because they did not work in Figaro 2.

Jessica (VR) seeks for more details...
I imagine they know the problem, and it's a procrastination strategy.

Do you consider it appropriate for me to send the screenshot that you have put here?
Or better to let it go?

Post by Hardtack | 2021-09-02 | 10:08:19

The screenshot doesn't show penalties taken by your own boat and in addition, as I said in my post from 2021-09-01 | 07:28:39 the penalties seem to be correct now.
My current assumption is, they accidentally released the function when it wasn't ready yet. There's an in game message from 2021-08-30 stating, quote:
"We apologize for this unexpected change and thank you for your understanding. Thanks to those of you who spotted this change, and alerted us."
Unless you can prove that your own boat was affected, I think it's best to forget about it.

Post by Inicio | 2021-09-02 | 10:16:48

Post by MIRAGE of Wool | 2021-09-02 | 11:38:51

I do struggle to see how all this extra complication adds value to VR. They are not the highest quality control company and do not seem to have any form of Beta testing, unless others know better! How many faulty 'upgrades' have occurred!

The are notorious for not listening to their users and no doubt did not ask their experienced players for feedback on updates.

The mathematically simplest implementation is a linear fit for penalty but from a software point of view a simple look up table is quicker to implement and undertake within their software. If it is a look up table then any shape can be used. This will all add processing time which may have a knock on effect of the reliability in general (lost WPs/programming corruption of initial start conditions)

MoW

Post by RaiderOfTheStorm | 2021-09-02 | 13:23:46

I'd like to add that we are always forced by VR to work as beta testers, sometimes even paying. Typically we receive no communication before! This is definitely a very questionable attitude, also an interesting matter for consumer lawyers.
For this specific case, besides the poor summer coding and the lack of a mandatory correct testing, there was an evident client-server bug. I'm afraid they do not have an appropiated computing power allocated

Post by jadanton | 2021-09-03 | 07:25:10

Hi hardtack,

Thanx a lot for your feedback, have you tried to see which (and how much) penalties are applied when you do a sail changing at the same tile as a tack or a gybe?

I guess the penalties are sumed up (49% of the speed with winches pro (70% of 70%), and 25% without) , like it was before, but on which time basis (as we have now different value whether you do such or such thing)?

Thanx
Anton

Post by Hardtack | 2021-09-03 | 08:08:16

I didn't, but the new Dashboard version is published. You can try to find the numbers yourself. You'll need to calculate the epxected loss of distance on a piece of paper and compare with what the dashboard shows.

There is one thing I noticed which didn't matter before, but matters now:
If you tack to a TWA greater or equal to 90�, the engine counts it as a gybe.
No dashboard needed, the game UI shows it.

Post by jadanton | 2021-09-06 | 10:43:36

thanx Hardtack, not sure i'll manage to be enough accurate, but that's worth a try ;-)

Post by Paspox | 2021-09-03 | 08:51:30

From what I understand, here is how it is supposed to work :
For example on a Class40, no prowinch, less than 10kts, lets say you want to do a tack (2' penalty) and a sail change (4' penalty).
The overall time penalty is 4' :
1/ For the first 2', you are tacking and changing sail : speed penalty = .5x.5 = .25
2/ The next 2', the tack is done but you are still changing sail : speed penalty = .5

Post by skipper du mad | 2021-09-07 | 17:01:07

Hello,
By studying the VR curve i get an approximate curvebased on power5 equation.

equation i find to get the penality time between 10 and 30 knts is :

pena = t1 + 1/100 * (t2-t1)*(0,00025679*V^5 - 0,025678992*V^4 + 0,956690979*V^3 - 16,31507172*V^2 + 130,3637175*V - 397,8625334)

t1 and t2 (in seconds) is the reference time for a given boat , V (in knds) is the wind speed.

I create a short website to help the visualization of the result :
French version : https://ityc.fr/indexEn.html
English version : https://ityc.fr/index.html

Hoping it helps
Regards
Skipper du Mad

Post by Mar1dodouce BK | 2021-09-12 | 14:56:24

Thank you Hardtack! this is great work. So when we do a race on our points (without paying), we get a sail change penalty every 24 hours when we put autosail back on?
(but taking into into account the winches?) kind of sucks...
but Sep 1 you wrote: "no penalty to switch to autosail anymore"?

Post by Hardtack | 2021-09-12 | 19:02:47

All the issues related to the new penalty schema were fixed in the meantime. There is no penalty when switching AutoSail on or off anymore, at least there wasn't when I last checked.

Post by Inicio | 2021-09-28 | 17:12:01

We know if Zezo accounts de new penalties? The sail change is now a bit hard...

Post by sauvageon | 2021-10-10 | 18:03:16

Hi there, would be great to know if the update has been integrated or not. Thanks by advance.

Post by Inicio | 2021-11-03 | 11:41:15

Cvetan, no notice yet about the integration of new penalties?
The TJV on ULTIM ...
Thanks!

Post by jeandumanson | 2021-11-07 | 09:05:10

@skipper du mal : are you sure of the equation you gave above ? It does not match at 10 knot nor at 30. Am I wrong ?Can you check it ?
Thanks.
Thank you also for your website: very useful !